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 Re: A Bright and Shining Lie...
 
mclark
178 posts
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Joined
1/27/2006

Re: A Bright and Shining Lie...
Posted: 07 Sep 06 10:44 PM
 Finucane wrote
[T]he real Vann was an ambiguous personality.


As are many men and women who are both famous and infamous.  Even Hitler and Stalin had redeeming characteristics: not many, and not enough, but there are few humans born upon this earth who are all bad.  However, the badness can easily outshine any goodness that might be there, especially when it is given free reign, as in any dictatorship.

Teufel Panzer MK4
1037 posts
3rd
Joined
7/1/2006

Re: A Bright and Shining Lie...
Posted: 09 Sep 06 11:34 PM

Yes, they did have redeaming factors: Hitler liked dogs, and Stalin killed Nazis.

Just don't start sayin that all dictatorships are bad. Only hereditary dictatorships are inherently bad.

mclark
178 posts
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Joined
1/27/2006

Re: A Bright and Shining Lie...
Posted: 10 Sep 06 1:20 AM
 Teuflepanzer Mk3 wrote

Yes, they did have redeaming factors: Hitler liked dogs, and Stalin killed Nazis.


Stalin wasn't actually very particular about who he killed.  The Nazis were a lot more circumspect than Stalin.  Examine the history of both regimes and you find that Hitler killed lots of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and a number of others of specific groups, but Stalin murdered by direct execution or by starvation entire populations within certain areas (see chapter 16 of Rpbert Conquest's book, "The Harvest of Sorrow"). 

Quoting a bit from the end of that chapter:

We may now conveniently sum up the estimated death toll roughly as follows:
Peasant dead: 1930-37 11 million
Arrested in this period dying in camps later3.5 million
TOTAL14.5 million
Of these:
Dead as a result of dekulakization6.5 million
Dead in the Kazakh catastrophe1 million
 in the Ukraine5 million
Dead in the 1932-3 faminein the N. Caucasus1 million
 elsewhere1 million


As we have said, these are enormous figures, comparable to the deaths in the major wars of our time. And when it comes to the genocidal element, to the Ukrainian figures alone, we should remember that five million constitutes about 18.8% of the total population of the Ukraine (and about a quarter of the rural population). In World War I less than 1 % of the population of the countries at war died. In one Ukrainian village of 800 inhabitants (Pysarivka in Podilia), where 150 had died, a local peasant ironically noted that only seven villagers had been killed in World War I.

 Just don't start sayin that all dictatorships are bad. Only hereditary dictatorships are inherently bad.

Inherent badness?  Bloody Mary (Mary I of England) got her rep from executing a few hundred Protestants.  Ivan the Terrible had 30 to 40,000 inhabitants of Novgorod killed.  Many other examples can be found of monarchs murdering their own subjects, often in cold blood.  But no "inherently bad" hereditary dictatorship in Europe ended up killing anywhere near such large portions of its own populations during peacetime as the non-hereditary dictatorships of the Nazis and Communists in the 20th century.  Better a bad king than a good Communist or Nazi dictator, in my not-so-humble opinion.

Teufel Panzer MK4
1037 posts
3rd
Joined
7/1/2006

Re: A Bright and Shining Lie...
Posted: 10 Sep 06 1:53 PM
 

Inherent badness?  Bloody Mary (Mary I of England) got her rep from executing a few hundred Protestants.  Ivan the Terrible had 30 to 40,000 inhabitants of Novgorod killed.  Many other examples can be found of monarchs murdering their own subjects, often in cold blood.  But no "inherently bad" hereditary dictatorship in Europe ended up killing anywhere near such large portions of its own populations during peacetime as the non-hereditary dictatorships of the Nazis and Communists in the 20th century.  Better a bad king than a good Communist or Nazi dictator, in my not-so-humble opinion.

Said Dictator, not Monarch. I actually like some monarchies. And If I remember correctly, Ghengis's son was also voted as the head of the Mongol Kiyat, just like daddy Temujin. How's that for Democracy, eh?

Finucane
1932 posts
2nd
Joined
1/25/2006

Re: A Bright and Shining Lie...
Posted: 11 Sep 06 3:46 AM
Chaps, you are all missing the really important issue here.  That is, in a cup of cocoa, why does the chocolate always sink to the bottom?  Answer that one, pundits, and you can say, when your short, miserable lives are at last ending, that you at least did one useful thing in your time on earth.
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